ALEXANDRIA, EGYPT: Unenforceable Covenant Grabs Center Stage as Anglican Primates Talk
By David W. Virtue in Alexandria
www.vritueonline.org
2/2/2009
There will be no more "stick-over-the-head sanctions" in dealing with Anglican provinces that do not toe the line over homosexual practice, said Australian Archbishop Philip Aspinall, spokesman for the 34 assembled Primates of the Anglican Communion.
At the first press conference on what 38 archbishops of 55 million Anglicans are engaged in, Aspinall said there was a "pulling back" from language that talked about sanctions, enforcement and teeth as they are inappropriate for the Body of Christ. Instead, a framework for koinonia, relationship and fellowship will prevail, with increasing realism about what a Covenant can and cannot do. Legislation is not the way forward, he said.
When questioned by VOL about how discipline will be exercised when things are now going to be based on "koinonia", "relationships" and "bonds of affection", rather than Scripture and the creeds, Aspinall replied that if there is a failure of koinonia, then we need to be investing further in communion. He said the provinces need to be committed to covenant, but not committed to a particular covenant.
"It is an issue of moral obligation, not legal enforcement. Each participating church that makes the gift of participating agrees to self limit its autonomy. We will not proceed on dividing issues. If a church willingly enters into this covenant, it must observe obligations. If there is a failure, the remedy required is to invest in mutual relationships. The only sanction we have is non invitation to meetings. There will be no more stick-over- the-head sanctions."
Aspinall said Lambeth pulled back from that kind of (enforcement) language. He said the Province of Australia has a three-fold method where sanctions could be applied. He said the first is adding to the constitution, "but that is unlikely to happen." Second is to pass a canon through the General Synod, "but that is also unlikely." Thirdly, pass sanctions through a resolution of General Convention, but it would have no legal force. There is only moral obligation, he said.
Asked if the Primates had revisited the Dar es Salaam communiqué which called for serious discipline of provinces that ordained homosexuals to the priesthood or blessed same-sex unions, Aspinall said that was off the table. "It is in the background. It certainly prompted the primates to see what kind of communication was coming out of the meeting."
Asked how effective the three-fold moratoria has been, Aspinall said it is all in a melting pot. Parts of the communion are very conscious and sensitive to it. He also said that making the primates ex officio members of the Anglican Consultative Council was off the table and had "lapsed."
Asked by "Guardian" reporter Riazat Butt if by moving away from sanctions, would you have a Covenant without teeth, Aspinall replied that they were issues of "desirability and workability."
"We need a theological understanding of the character of communion and relationships. We need to build trust. Technically sanctions and punishment are not workable or useful."
Aspinall said the Primates are awaiting the next draft from the Covenant Design Group who is still waiting for responses to the St. Andrews Draft. The draft needs to be received by the ACC. "All primates are aware of the situation and there is a general warming to the possibilities that might be afforded by a covenant, at same time realizing what a Covenant can and cannot do."
Aspinall said the meeting had started well. "There is a good atmosphere. The Primates are pretty relaxed, but people are aware of the tensions. "There are not the levels of anxiety that have accompanied other Primates meetings."
Questioned if all the Primates were taking Holy Communion together, Aspinall replied that communion was celebrated by all the primates and no one has absented themselves. "No one has made any statement that they are not participating in Holy Communion."
However, VOL was told by a source that now that Katharine Jefferts Schori has shown up, things will be different tomorrow (Tuesday). A number of primates have said they will not take communion if she does.
Asked by VOL if GAFCON would in time replace LAMBETH and ACNA, the liberal North American provinces, Aspinall said he could not speculate on the future and a possible split in the communion, but the hope is always for the possibility of moving towards reconciliation. "My hope is for the latter."
Aspinall noted 34 Primates were present except for the Sudan whose primate has a visa problem. The Primate of the Philippines was refused a visa and three Primates from North and South India and Pakistan apologized because they could not attend because of other commitments. Eight Primates are here for the first time. The Archbishop of York John Sentamu is also here.
Five Primates made presentations on the degree to which the pressing sexuality issues influenced mission priorities. Aspinall said that where the bishops had been in discussion about the issues, they were cast in the particular. "Some are very traditional and there is no variation of that view. Others said the issues had not percolated down and many were concerned that if they did, it would be unsettling church life."
Aspinall indicated that there was a huge variety of responses from one culture to another. In one culture, matters of human sexuality are a very real live issue. In some cases, it is alive in the culture, but it is not driving the churches. The church has not provoked or enlivened these issues, he said.
"In all of the presentations, there was a clear presenting of mission in the light of local issues. Human sexuality is not just a challenge for Anglicans only."
"It became clear to the extent in the way in which Scripture is interpreted and affected by local circumstances. It is the spectacles we wear." Aspinall cited what he called the powerful analogy offered by Archbishop Thabo that in South Africa there is a divisive debate around the ethics of armed struggle to overthrow apartheid. The church managed to stay together and serve the needs of the people."
The five presenters were Archbishop Stephen of Myanmar, (formerly Burma), Archbishops Thabo Makgoba of South Africa, Katharine Jefferts Schori of the TEC, Archbishop Fred Hiltz of Canada and Henry Luke Orombi of Uganda.
Questioned about the emerging new North American Anglican Province (ACNA), Aspinall said it had not been added to the agenda, but it was referred to in passing. There was no plenary discussion. People are aware of it but it is not in focus. Nobody has declared such an expectation for a new province to be declared.
Questioned on cross border interventions and the three moratoria, Aspinall said they were part of the discussion. They have all called for the moratoria to be observed.
Questioned by the homogenital leader, Colin Coward of the British-based Changing Attitude organization if the "Listening Process" was on the agenda, Aspinall said there was not an identifiable slot on the agenda for such a discussion.
Of the Windsor Continuation Group's recommendations, Aspinall said the Archbishop of Canterbury has asked that it be kept confidential so the primates have a chance to work through it. He said he hoped to make a report at end of the week to the media.
The covenant was proposed to set out sanctions for provinces that breached accepted Anglican norms on issues such as gay consecrations, but Mrs. Jefferts Schori has nixed any discussion about a covenant at the upcoming General Convention in July. We are now told that it will be 2015 before a Covenant would likely be voted on by The Episcopal Church.
END
| Poster | Thread |
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| griever | Posted: 2009/2/2 19:29 Updated: 2009/2/2 19:29 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/2/23 From: San Jose,California Posts: 15 |
Quote:
"It became clear to the extent in the way in which Scripture is interpreted and affected by local circumstances. It is the spectacles we wear." I think Archbishop Philip Aspinall is wearing blinders. |
| ZachD | Posted: 2009/2/2 20:56 Updated: 2009/2/2 20:59 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/11/10 From: Posts: 1782 |
Well A-Va:
I had some higher hopes as well. But that is quashed. It's not that I was naive, but that 'enough is enough' was not unreasonable to my way of thinking. It is simply unreasonable to others. The week is not yet done, although it is all over for our Communion. GAFCON will not stand for this. They have an understanding of Mortal Sin, even if these play-actors do not. The two factions seemingly in place are those who are holding on, and those who are proactive. Have mercy, Lord. |
| daveball | Posted: 2009/2/2 21:06 Updated: 2009/2/2 21:06 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2281 |
It sounds to me like Schori has bought off the Primates. This is an extremely disappointing report. With the total lack of commitment to any factual accomplishment at this meeting, there would seem scant hope anything will ever happen. Please excuse me for saying so but koinonia, relationships and bonds of affection are pure nonsense when trying to establish discipline in an organization. Without some level of judgement and sanction, does anyone seriouysly think the revisionists will change their ways? If so, I have a bridge to sell you.
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| frgregm | Posted: 2009/2/2 22:32 Updated: 2009/2/2 22:32 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/6/2 From: Posts: 8 |
If ++Aspinall is reflecting the mind of the mind of the Primates as a whole, and not just the liberal narrative, then ... sadness, and worse.
Hopefully there will be better news in a few days. |
| warmac9999 | Posted: 2009/2/2 22:32 Updated: 2009/2/2 22:35 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/2/16 From: Posts: 1447 |
As far as I can tell, there are no standards and no principles within the liberal factions of the Anglican Communion. All these people can do is whatever is momentarily politically correct.
There is no question that an enforcement regime could be established and that regime could decide on a majority or plurality that something was Christian and, therefore acceptable to the church or unChristian and, therefore not acceptable to the church. This has been done a number of times within the Catholic church which somehow, even with all of its problems, tries to maintain Christian standards. TEC is a gnostic organization and needs to be purges from Anglicanism. If this is not done, the entire Anglican communion will collapse within 50 years or less. The sad thing here is that Jesus was not a coward. He died for our sins. These bishops, who supposedly represent the line of Jesus followers, are nothing but cowards. |
| Cennydd | Posted: 2009/2/2 22:37 Updated: 2009/2/2 22:39 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
Two things: First of all, do any of you remember when I said that if Schori was there, nothing would be done about the covenant? Well, it wasn't, was it? It is DOA!
Second, the GAFCON primates aren't going to tolerate any more shenanigans from anybody. Say HELLO to the big split! Cennydd |
| Falcon | Posted: 2009/2/3 0:19 Updated: 2009/2/3 0:19 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/16 From: A State Close to Heaven Posts: 131 |
A wasted week, more Anglican fudge and continuing blah, blah, blah, if the remaining days go like this one.
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| Howell | Posted: 2009/2/3 0:51 Updated: 2009/2/3 0:51 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/13 From: Colorado Posts: 441 |
My decision to cross the Tiber last October has been totally vindicated. This Egypt meeting is FARCE of the highest order. The waste of money for travel and board is deplorable. And to what end? When will the Kabuki Theatre end and people call a spade a spade.
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| Cennydd | Posted: 2009/2/3 1:17 Updated: 2009/2/3 1:17 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2005/10/30 From: Los Banos, CA, Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin Posts: 6684 |
When, you ask? When the revisionists and their liberalism are DEAD AND GONE!
Cennydd |
| Ikerliker | Posted: 2009/2/3 1:19 Updated: 2009/2/3 1:19 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/1/16 From: PA Posts: 2046 |
Another waste of time and money. This cannot be fixed unless the heretics repent which they will never do. They only thing left to do is walk apart. All this blabbering is useless!
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| otispage2 | Posted: 2009/2/3 1:47 Updated: 2009/2/3 2:13 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/3/14 From: Posts: 602 |
Stand, bow your head, and thank God. We are observing the final act in the destruction of the Communion. That which Schori and her homosexual gang have purchased, God will dispose of by the administration of His Wrath!
2Cor 11:13-15 "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." All true Christian saints must advise the Anglican laity that they must flee to preserve their salvation. It is done! |
| daveball | Posted: 2009/2/3 1:50 Updated: 2009/2/3 1:50 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2281 |
One can only hope that eventually the GAFCON Primates open their mouths and take some action. So far the silence is deafening. If and when they do act, who will act in what way? GAFCON is far from a homogenous group. What will, for example, ++Akinola say about ++Duncan and his WO? What about some standard of BCP? Which theology of sacraments will be "official"? What of the Anglo-Catholics?
I pray I am wrong but I do see division - several divisons, unfortunately. |
| Aneirin | Posted: 2009/2/3 3:07 Updated: 2009/2/3 3:07 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/12/30 From: Southern California Posts: 162 |
Are any of the signers of the Jerusalem Declaration at this meeting?
If so, why do they not take a stand for the faith once delivered? I am new here and I do not understand. |
| Sodslaw | Posted: 2009/2/3 5:31 Updated: 2009/2/3 21:31 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/8/3 From: Orthodox Bunker Posts: 330 |
The title of Rush Limbaugh's book came to me as I pondered anew the fudge in Alex'.
Cennyd, you are sorely mistaken if you think that anyone cares that your diocese or those like you have left the TEC. You had no choice, and yes you did the right thing in a way, but there will be no momentous split, there will be no discipline apart from you and your bishop getting the rough end of the stick. Sadly I believe that you have condemned yourselves to a marginalized way of life, not fully out of but never fully in the Communion that is no longer Christian so why would you even want that? You are an outreach of +Greg Venables province, brilliant. A great guy, a holy priest and a fearless leader, however by doing that, you are tenuously in communion with Canterbury (although they only accept TEC as an authentic representative of Anglicanism is North America) and thus you are still in the same pool of people as the TEC and those like them. WHY?? We can claim to be the real deal, the orthodox, the faithful, but we are unequally yoked when our family tree leads to Canterbury because Canterbury is no longer a faithful witness to Christianity. This conference is good for the lawyers, good for David Virtue and other journalists as it is newsworthy, but it is not good for Christians. Faithful men arise and say NO! Or you are as guilty as those who commit the crime of heresy. If you stay quiet even the stones will cry out! |
| misfit | Posted: 2009/2/3 10:07 Updated: 2009/2/3 10:07 |
Just popping in ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/7/2 From: Posts: 14 |
Can Aspinal say this without bringing judgement on himself?
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again; he ascended into heaven, he is seated at the right hand of the Father, and he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen. So what about the conditions and imperatives placed on us, the relatives, friends, the church and the community, with regard to a of gay wedding? How are we supposed to respond? Do we have responsibilities? Should the church door be wide open to all ? Jesus said in Matthew 7: 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” The book of Ephesians has for may years been held up as a book about church unity but my reading of it is that, increasingly, it is about warfare; indeed, it ends with some of the most vivid instructions on how to wage it. Church unity is not the same as the universalist's mantras "inclusion and diversity" which have been seized with an almost religious fervour by the church; not only does Jesus Christ tell us that many are called by God but that few are chosen. The letter to the Ephesians, as a consequence, orders the church to enforce this selection and to exclude those within the church fellowship who are clearly not called, or who behave as such, until as such time as they are brought to repentance. Although Jesus Christ is the final judge, there is a burden of responsibility laid upon us all. The universal church does have responsibilities in making sure that there is a clear distinction between the Christian and all others. Like an invading and infiltrating army we have to be in society but not of it. Above all, like troops, in Normandy, during D-Day, engaged in fierce hand to hand fighting, we need to recognise friend from foe. Poverty and AIDs are not principally the enemy, but the spiritual forces that have produced them. |
| Dominic | Posted: 2009/2/3 11:50 Updated: 2009/2/3 11:50 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/10 From: London Posts: 285 |
Aspinall is quite right of course. How can we possibly tell people what they must believe in order for them to be part of the Christian family. Jesus never did any thing like that that, did He?
(Please read with your sarcasm specs on) |
| Dominic | Posted: 2009/2/3 11:54 Updated: 2009/2/3 11:54 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/7/10 From: London Posts: 285 |
Seriously, no-one who can speak of God's Word in the way that Aspinall does can possibly know the salvation offered through faith in Jesus Christ alone, let alone have it themselves.
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| patulous | Posted: 2009/2/3 13:59 Updated: 2009/2/3 13:59 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/5/18 From: Posts: 1746 |
Quote: "However, VOL was told by a source that now that Katharine Jefferts Schori has shown up, things will be different tomorrow (Tuesday). A number of primates have said they will not take communion if she does."
A few bishops show much more intellect than others. I first thought that the bishops were going on vacation and were having a good time at their "hootenanny", but then schoria the demon shows up and all gets quiet. No singing, no prayers, and no communion....what a drag that must have been. |
| daveball | Posted: 2009/2/3 14:46 Updated: 2009/2/3 14:46 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/12/18 From: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2281 |
Patulous,
It won't change until the group tells Schori she is not welcome and don't show up. That, sadly, is unlikely to happen. I keep asking myself, why do the African Primates keep putting up with this nonsense. The west is not their fight. I am sure most have written off the ABC, Lambeth and ACC. They know what they believe. Why, exactly, do they need the myth of Anglican Euro centered communion? Would it be such a stretch to imagine them just not showing up at the big fag fests anymore? |
| joemahler | Posted: 2009/2/3 15:46 Updated: 2009/2/3 15:46 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/12/8 From: Williamsburg, Virginia Posts: 55 |
"He [Bp Aspinall] said the provinces need to be committed to covenant, but not committed to a particular covenant."
Hmm?? Not the covenant of God? The covenant of grace? A warning God will keep His covenant. And it is particular. Love is an excuse for mercy but not for rebellion and the acceptance of abominations. And I've been told that bishops are the defenders of the faith. LORD have mercy. |
| hunter | Posted: 2009/2/3 16:56 Updated: 2009/2/3 16:56 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2007/4/29 From: Posts: 113 |
re: the illustration of the Ten Commandments
MAGNIFICENT....... a truly "virtual" "coup de grace" |
| joemahler | Posted: 2009/2/3 20:49 Updated: 2009/2/3 21:35 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/12/8 From: Williamsburg, Virginia Posts: 55 |
chcate,
You need to swim the James and come over to the Anglican Church as it is meant to be. Protestant, Confessional, Evangelical, Biblical, submitting to God and his righteousness. By the way, the picture of Moses breaking the tablet of the Law reminds me of something. Moses did this when he came down to the mount and saw the image that the Israelites had made and bowed themselves before it. The image was meant to represent God who brought them out of the land of Egypt. Moses wasn't happy with his brethern for making an icon (image). God wasn't happy with that generation. Why would anyone think God is happy with those who break his righteousness that He codified in the Law. The moral Law has not been done away with, we are still obligated to obey it, to love it, and to do it. |
| perejohn | Posted: 2009/2/4 0:35 Updated: 2009/2/4 0:35 |
Quite a regular ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/4/29 From: Posts: 59 |
If ++Aspinall truly speaks for the Primates, then all is lost. The "so called" Anglican "Communion" is no longer Catholic nor Christian.
GAFCON rise up, it is our last chance. John+ |
| Aneirin | Posted: 2009/2/4 1:47 Updated: 2009/2/4 2:31 |
Home away from home ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/12/30 From: Southern California Posts: 162 |
Well said perejohn!
I keep wondering when one of the Primates will confront heresy. Or do they value the praises of the world more than honoring the Lord? |
| Fidelis | Posted: 2009/2/4 2:32 Updated: 2009/2/4 2:32 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/2/25 From: Sydney Posts: 72 |
Aspinall may be Archbishop of Australia but he definitely is not the chief pastor of Australian Anglicans. His role is mainly administrative and he has no jurisdiction beyond his own diocese, which is a long way doctrinally and geographically from Sydney.
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| tinpipes | Posted: 2009/2/4 17:40 Updated: 2009/2/4 17:40 |
Not too shy to talk ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/3/23 From: way South Posts: 38 |
"When questioned by VOL about how discipline will be exercised when things are now going to be based on "koinonia", "relationships" and "bonds of affection", rather than Scripture and the creeds, Aspinall replied that if there is a failure of koinonia, then we need to be investing further in communion. He said the provinces need to be committed to covenant, but not committed to a particular covenant."
Then, according to the revisionists' shill, for the heretical Western component of the Anglican Communion, ersatz koinonia and ersatz covenant replace Jesus Christ as the foundation of the Anglican expression of Christianity. Have these heretics read 1 Corinthians 3 lately (ever)? The abject cowardice of Jefferts Schori and Abp. Williams is breathtaking, having to enlist Aspinall to do their proclamation of the doctrine of indaba/listening dirty work. Look and pray for the orthodox minority report at the conclusion of this travesty of a meeting. It should be a withering diatribe against that which revisionism hath wrought! |
| Fidelis | Posted: 2009/2/4 20:59 Updated: 2009/2/4 20:59 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2008/2/25 From: Sydney Posts: 72 |
I think it is appalling that a senior bishop of the church says:
"""Aspinall indicated that there was a huge variety of responses from one culture to another. In one culture, matters of human sexuality are a very real live issue. In some cases, it is alive in the culture, but it is not driving the churches. The church has not provoked or enlivened these issues, he said.""" Surely if a heretical province of the church flagrantly ignores the pleas of the worldwide fellowship and sanctions gay marriage and gay clergy that is PROVOCATIVE behavior! C'mon Bishop Aspinall, get off the fence and admit responsibility for your prejudice and false doctrine! |
| hellcat | Posted: 2009/2/5 3:36 Updated: 2009/2/5 3:36 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2006/2/7 From: Fort Worth Posts: 145 |
Will Aspinall and his friends be hosting a Bible burning party at the end of this luau? It would be ideal to showcase the PB's Hawaiian shirt.
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| bradhutt | Posted: 2009/2/5 21:18 Updated: 2009/2/5 21:18 |
Just can't stay away ![]() ![]() Joined: 2004/5/5 From: Washington D.C. Metro Area Posts: 145 |
Who art this Aspinall? What are these people smoking?
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